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3:58 pm
December 21, 2007
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Greysoule
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I had something hit me like a ton of bricks today. Warrior types in both 3.5 and a lot of Massive Multiplayer Online games have the same internal problem. They are bound to the equipment they have as much as a spellcaster is bound to their spells.
There is nothing wrong with that at first glance until you get thinking about it.
By large warrior types are the indroductory character for almost any game. It may be that they are easier to play, or that people can visualise them easier, or more than likely most people do not want to get into the complicated task of building a caster or skill oriented character together for the new person to the group.
Now the problem with this is that almost all games make the warrior type as good as their equipment. Thus the old saying… A warrior's wits are only sharp as his sword. Now along the same lines almost all casters and rogueish sorts rely on the skills they choose or their bonuses they get from their attributes.
To be edited and/or continued after supper.
—————
Full belly and ready to continue.
So where does this place the new character? Up front and in the thick of things. After all, a warrior is most known for taking damage or slow damage over time. I have found the best bet you have is to be paired with at least one other warrior that has progressed with the group that knows how everyone does things. Otherwise when things go bad the new guy is up front to take the blame.
This could be a good thing or a bad thing. If things go well the new person will start feeling comfortable and part of the group. If things go bad then the group cuts their losses and go on without him or the guy can be put out and go elsewhere… hopefully not away from RPGs and back to Monopoly or whatever else they used to play.
Sorry to go on a rant but this creates two problems.
One, the old hands are all sitting back and not risking anything because their general position are behind the warriors to begin with.
Two, the newcomer has a gimped character that is worse off than other classes simply because they don't have the funds to arm or armor themselves up properly.
I have said this before. A mage can sit back butt naked with a spellbook and still be a serious threat. A naked warrior is nothing more than a fleshbag waiting to be beaten.
Now I know skills play a huge part in things, and I know I will be pissing off a lot of people for my opinions here. Raw fact is that a fireball deals damage based off what your character is… may it be level, intelligence, or some other factor during character creation. A damage dealing warrior may have great potential for destruction based off strength, skills, or whatever else… but without the magic weapon or the full suit of armor then he will have something seriously lacking.
On MMOs you get people eyeballing you to see what armor or weapons you have, then nine out of ten times dropping the newb and getting someone more "useful".
On 3.5 you end up alienating another potential gamer unless the guy gets a good break and gets in the group.
This all comes to the forefront if you compare a warrior trying to get into a guild/group in an online game. You have base equipment or whatever you have pieced together. In 3.5 you start with a higher end charcter seriously gimped due to starting with 1st level character funds… at least in my recent dungeon delving.
Both ways a new gamer gets pushed toward a position that is less than par. The truly sad part is that this potientially alienated new gamers which are the lifeblood of a dying breed.
I know, this was a long rant. I hope that I am wrong about 3.5, but my gut feeling tells me that I am not. I simply had to post this soon as I thought of this to give you all a heads up before TPK.
————-murmurings of one ugly gamer -Grey
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4:06 pm
December 21, 2007
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DaCoop
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I like were your going with this. Please continue.
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3:28 pm
December 22, 2007
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BigE
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While I will have to go with Greysoule's take on MMOs I have some bones to pick with his take on Warriors in 3.5. First off it is true it is "easier" to play a Fighter for your first session rather than a spell caster. The reason is not that it is a simpler class. Because a 1st level human fighter can kick the crap out of ANY Wizard or Even most other spell casters including clerics or druids (though a druid is powerful at any level). It is because Warrior types have a much better chance of survival in combat at low levels. Magic missiles are cool, but don't mean jack S**T when your 1st level ass is hist with a longbow arrow! Welcome to rolling to stabilize.
As to Warriors just being meat shields; That is a warriors job. Because no matter how badass your 5th level wizard is with his fire ball. He can still be killed by a critical from a long bow. A 5th level fighter will 9 times out of 10 survive your 5d6 fireball and then ram his battleaxe up your 20 some odd hitpoint butt with a big grin on his face.
Talking about equipment. In 3.5 Spellcasters need first components and then their spells can be interrupted. I will bet my entire 3.5 book collection that a good 75% of the time a 3rd level fighter I make can take out any 5th level wizard. Because it is not equipment that makes a fighter in 3.5 it is feats and the knowledge of the rules.
You have to use more rules and learn more feats playing a fighter than a wizard. After a 5th level wizard throws his 1 or 2 3rd level spells and starts pitching lower level damaging spells he has to fall back on poking with his dagger, staff or light crossbow. While a 5th level warrior naked still has a at least as good of an armor class, and using the Improved unarmed strike feat along with his powerattack feat can most of the time beat the wizard senseless before he gets to cast more than one spell.
Armor and weapons do not make a fighter in 3.5. Feats, rules knowledge and good tactics do. Sure you can just stand there and swing your sword and soak hits. But it is not called the ART of WAR for nothing.
9 times out of 10 a 5th level warrior can end up alone and survivea CR5 encounter while a 5th level wizard will be turned into chopped liver.
I'm not saying Wizards can't be potent, but so can EVERY CLASS IN THE PHB if played to their fullest potential.
3.5 as with most other RPGs are meant to be played by a group of friends each playing a PC that fills a role.
As to the problem of not getting in a group because of your equipment or gear. In 3.5 you should not be ostracized like in an online game. If this happens then you are playing with a bunch of punks who have no business playing at MY TABLE! You play to have fun. D&D is not a win or lose game. People with that attitude need to go play candyland because that sounds like they need to learn to play well with others.
A DM should make a game that challenges his players strengths. If players don't want to party up with a ranger just because he does not have the best Survival skill or the coolest magic gear, then perhaps you need to find new players who enjoy playing the game not just collecting experience.
I can go on and on about this in more detail if you so wish, but I do not agree with Grey about warriors being made by their gear in 3.5. Magic items are great but they don't make a warrior or any other class
Big E
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Hacking My Way to Glory and Riches
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7:46 am
December 23, 2007
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Greysoule
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Let me start by saying in recent years I don't have as much gaming exp. as all you at Black Pigeon Press. I normally get to RP once overy month or two due to my job schedule. I also want to make it clear that your gaming table is one of three that felt right to play at in my last five years of gaming… as it always has for the many years before that.
That being said I have one event I can think of that comes from your gaming table so to speak. At last years TPK during the Dungeon of Death there was one dwarf warrior that had his equipment ate off him by some version of ooze. When he paid to get back in the game the person running that dwarf felt a big difference since he came back basically butt naked. Now I understand that the Dungeon of Death was a different breed of 3.5 than normal but it does demonstrate my fear that RPings tabletop style is getting closer and closer to a mini game than true role playing… thus closer and closer to MMOs.
The spirit of my objection as a mid level character not being able to fill his role nearly so well with starting equipment… around fifth to sixth level getting thrown into an adventure with starting level equipment. I have a challenge for you that could prove me wrong. In spirit of what I was talking about I was thinking of a group going on an adventure with two of it's warrior/melee characters using starting off equipment, then doing the same adventure with two of the mages/spellcasters starting out with starting equipment. I would trust you or whoever to set up all the characters fairly based and exp or level. Once finished you could ask all involved to see which group ran with less problems. This wont be completely accurate but it should be an interesting test of game mechanics. I will be more than willing to admit it if I am wrong, but what it boils down to is that I believe that the starting equipment will simply make the casters choose different spells… thus giving them different choices. The warriors will not get the armor or weapons that allow them to have a high enough AC to compare to the warrior that has progressed normally… thus really reducing thier ability to soak raw damage so they can not fill thier role.
Pen and Paper has always been my favorite form of RPing. My point of this post is that I have seen many people try out 3.5 or some other form of RP and walk away due to having a poor first experience. I would love to see more and more people giving RPing a good start instead of quitting due to a flaw in setup… and again, that flaw is simply my opinion.
—-still one ugly gamer -Grey
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5:21 pm
December 23, 2007
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BigE
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The Dungeon O' Death, is a pretty BAD FREAKING EXAMPLE to make your case of craping on what has become the worlds most popular roleplaying game. Let me start off by saying I"M SORRY THAT WE ALL DON"T STILL PLAY AN ANTIQUATED VERSION OF D&D. I"M SORRY THE GAME HAS EVOLVED AND SOME OF ITS PLAYERS HAVE NOT. I"M SORRY YOU FEEL THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED, even though I don't believe you have read even the PHB for the 3.0 or 3.5 version cover to cover even once. I SORRY THAT I MUST HAVE ROUSED YOUR IRER. I thought you were looking for other opinions. I did not know you planned to throw TPK, Black Pigeon Press or the DOD under the preverbal bus. with that said. NOW I SEE we should all retort in kind.
My Retort.
THANK you for TRUSTING ME (or whoever) to set up the Charcaters fairly based on exp/ level. TO THAT, in this one gamemaster opinion if you did not earn the exp, you should not BITCH if you are allowed to make a more powerful character without being given the magic items that it is apparent you feel makes the game. This smell of "POWER GAMING" to me.
As to your Challenge and of admitting to being wrong if it is proved in some kind of test; I really feel no need to prove I'm right. I Have just stated my opinion based on the THOUSANDS OF GAME HOURS PLAYING BOTH 3.0 AND 3.5. It happens almost every playtest session here at B.P.P. If we are playing a Mid or even high level adventure. Most of us just roll up PC and take ONLY BASIC STARTING GEAR! Last weekend for example. Without our Fighter (Made one game session prior and only with basic equipment) or our Paladin (made just that session with only basic equipment) and with a Rogue that had to add a couple of levels to play the adventure and having only basic gear to boot ) we would not have been able to kill a CR 15 Dragon. My Priest and Coops Druid had better than basic gear, but we have played those characters from level 1 in every playtest session. Without the damage from the fighter rogue and especially the Paladin we would have all died and failed to defeat the dragon and complete the adventure.
I myself have jumped into a longtime running game where I played a 10th level barbarian. I had only basic gear of a 1st level and still managed to kick way more ass than most of the party! (who by the way had magic loot).
All I can say to you is you are always welcome at my gaming table and you can see for yourself. It s not lack of magic or power of one class over another but lack of knowledge that sets some players or characters apart from others. Play the game to have fun. If 3.5 or any version is not your cup of MOUNTAIN DEW than play an older version or some other game. I would recommend though that before you go to war arm yourself (READ ALL THE RULES and then complain).
On that note perhaps you will enjoy 4e, I see it will be more streamlined and EVERYONE will have crazy abilities and powers.
Just One Fatter Uglier GMs opinion.
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Hacking My Way to Glory and Riches
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10:33 am
December 24, 2007
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Brooks
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Just like the good ol' days….
Hee,hee
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retsam eht ma I woN .renrael a tub saw I uoy tfel I nehW.
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6:05 pm
December 24, 2007
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Timaaa
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So, now that we have said our 2 cents, what are we going to do? Let's go to Gencon and not play the Living Dungeon because it is not role playing? Certain groups delve into roleplaying, which we all have done wholeheartedly, but with all the changes over the years, it is hard to roleplay and be a rules lawyer and dungeon crawl to find the crypt and the treasure. There needs to be a point where you can play, roleplay, hack and slash to your hearts content. As stated before, the years of gaming experience is tremendous, I myself have been playing since 1978, and I have seen the changes first hand. Didn't like it at first, but we adjusted and we gamed. We are trying to provide a fun experience for all levels of players. The Dungeon of Death was a special event provided that was thoroughly enjoyed by all! If you don't like it, fine, that is your opinion, just don't rain on our =#@(!^* parade.
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Drink plenty o' fluids, Budweiser for me!
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3:05 am
December 25, 2007
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Greysoule
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I don't own the 3.5 books, and I am more familiar with 3.0. The game has been using an updated version of the same to hit system for two decades… I don't care if it is a to hit number, some chart on a sceen to look up, THAC0, or target AC modified by to hit numbers. I don't need a book with a chart in front of me to figure that out. A good measure of how hard it is to kill a character is based off 4 things, hit points, AC, a combination of skills and feats provided by knowledge of the rules and the skill of the person involved playing that character. All characters have a combination of these things. My whole point was that most warrior types role they fill is more closely associated than the other classes due to base AC coming mainly from the armor they wear. Common ground of new players is HPs and AC due to inexperiance and I don't think that new players should be given a bad shake because of this.
I have been playing in scattered locations for a few years due to the fact I have had a hellish work schedule. I have played at Clicks, Jesters, Games Workshop, B&B games (local game shops for those not in this area) and a couple individuals houses as well in recent years. One day I came home and was soaking the prison funk off my sorry arse and had a realization… the same thing is happening in MMOs as 3.5…. thus I started this thread. In the last two years I have seen 50 to 100 new players in various pen and paper RP try out the game then go back to Magic the Gathering or whatever game they came from because they felt they could not fill thier role.
I never attacked B.P.P., T.P.K. or D.o.D. and if you took what I was saying that way I am truly sorry about that. If people disagree with my opinions I am fine with that. I have tried my damnest not to let personal bias involve my decisions.
I do believe 3.5 is one of the best, if not the best roleplaying system there is. I also feel GMs have a obligation to interperate the rules as they go. You all have some of the most extensive time involved in 3.5 and the previous games in this area I know of. I am not a newcomer to gaming by any means. I have over 2 decades of gaming under my belt, have been to both Gencon and Archon and once upon a time have been offered a job as a beta tester/game counselor at nintindo. I do believe I am intitled to my opinions without having my moral character or integrity attacked.
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3:39 am
December 25, 2007
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Greysoule
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::grins wide:: almost forgot… about you being fatter and uglier. I am a stumpy bastard that weighs in at 280 lbs or so at 6.0 on my left side and 5.11 on the other. I also have 10-15 lbs of hardware installed in me so I suppose it would be hard to figure. Uglier, maybe before my last hair cut. I was felling stares at my backside every now and again at work… since then I have shaved my head and have had several comments like "Damn, I did not know you could get so much uglier". You have seen my lumpy scalp. It ain't pretty. There has also been a tendency for inmates of your build and demeanor becoming quite *ahem* popular this time of year. Older, well you have me there… wait a minute, was older one of the…
Happy Holidays, keep the seasons full of cheer.
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3:07 pm
December 25, 2007
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BigE
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My whole point was that most warrior types role they fill is more closely associated than the other classes due to base AC coming mainly from the armor they wear. Common ground of new players is HPs and AC due to inexperiance and I don’t think that new players should be given a bad shake because of this. – Greysoule
What about a Warrior type with a High Dex score. At low to mid levels yo can get a lot more mileage out of a high Dex, light armor and a heavy shield than you can out of even full plate! A High Dex also opens up a lot more choice FEATS than a just a HIGH Strength (Many of these are in the PHB and are Fighter Bonus feats) so a new player has access to them without much reading. In fact one of the early POWER GAMER articles here on our site deals with the greatness of just this kind of PC. This kind of high Dex PC can fill the role as frontline meat much better than a big strength PC. True he will not put out as much damage, but we will tie up opponents for a long time as he is hard to hit. The high the level the nastier this guys gets around 8th he is whirlwind attacking and cranking out nasty amounts of small damage wounds to multiple opponents and is way more likely to hit high AC Monsters than a brute with Power Attack and cleave. The best combo is one Power Attack Cleave master and one nasty quick defensive fighter. The truth is it is all how you build your Fighter. Build a bad fighter you will have a hard time filling your role in the party NO MATTER what kind of gear ou have magical or not.
Just my opinion, but new players should really start at 1st level. That way they can learn the game from the ground up. I know this is not always an option, but if this was a perfect world Grey and I could agree on all fronts and game systems would not have flaws.
Also a note on:(the game has been using an updated version of the same to hit system for two decades… I don’t care if it is a to hit number, some chart on a sceen to look up, THAC0, or target AC modified by to hit numbers. I don’t need a book with a chart in front of me to figure that out.)
I am well aware you have no need of charts to figure this out. My point is if you had access to the PHB you (with your ability to deconstruct almost any game system in a matter of minutes) would see the merits of my arguments and the amount of FEATS and Combat Maneuvers that really make magic gear just some cool shiny stuff that in most cases a PC just does not need to own to do his or her job, no matter what race, class or level.
Also it is the way of the world that RP games become more like computer games, because they must compete. WE My friend are a dying breed. The love of dice, roleplaying and a good adventure are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Now it's flash and quickness of play. Monty Hall Gaming at its finest. You will be hard pressed to find a gamer under the age of 25 that would enjoy a game where they lost everything except their pants, boots and 4 cps. They would crybaby about losing all their shiny loot, not feeling happy that they survived to tell the tale.
We "Old Schooler" may be going the way of the dinosaurs, but the difference is we can do it with handfuls of dice, pizza stains on our shirts and a whole lot of fun along the way.
GAME ON!
by the way, between Grey and Brooks, I'm not sure who the has the biggest S@#T Disturbing Paddle :)
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Hacking My Way to Glory and Riches
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7:20 pm
December 25, 2007
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Greysoule
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While I don't agree with your opinion totally on game mechanics, I want to push any of the arguing aside to address the real question.
How do you keep new players around that try out good old pen and paper RP?
I think there are really a lot of things involved.
1. A lot of old friends have went over to Iraq and with them a lot of the good gaming pool.
2. Many of the games that players are imported from are targeting younger players. Magic the Gathering is getting younger all the time. How about Pokemon? Various mini click games. Not to mention the huge crowd coming from World of Warcraft and it's like.
3. Most old school gamers got their ideas from Tolkien and his like. Now days I hate to say it but video games have changed how people think of RPing and what is expected of it.
4. The time is ripe for gaming. There are more people willing to try out something new because of the changes of the times.
5. Game mechanics have evolved and gotten much more complicated than back in the olden days. Because of this the learning curve is much longer.
There are many other factors. The things I pointed out make a lot of new people introduced to gaming. Most of the people are younger. Good quality people are shipped off out of country. And lastly the learning curve is longer.
This all dilutes the hardcore individuals that paint the picture for all the new individuals involved. I really think the mini aspect of 3.5 has came to the forefront to help visualise things for newer players.
What can you do about this? I have no idea but you guys have a convention coming up and I would be willing to bet you have at least 50% greater turnout than last year.
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10:38 pm
December 25, 2007
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BigE
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We never totally agree on much my friend (But that is what makes us such good partners at a game table, because in the end differences aside we suck it up and get the job done) .
As to getting younger players into PNP, well first off make it fun. Make it over the top. in short do what we all take for an average game night. Crazy voices, cool props or terrain. It is not like in the old days a piece of scratch paper and a kitchen table (I sometimes wish it was, but it isn't and most likely never will be again)
The mines do to things: Help fuel the imagination (making it easier to picture what is really going on) and Keep everybody honest. Yep it is a sad fact, but now a days people play with few friends and more strangers. I trust all you guys that sit around my home gaming table. Some convention tables are a bit different. The Minies help with this. I can't imagine the arguments over where someone was standing when an ambush hits if we still did things like in the old days. Gone are those simpler days, at least for now. We have a chance to mold the new generations of gamers. Can we make the need for rules lawyers a thing of the past? HELL NO! Rules lawyers have existed before we really needed to have one at a game table. We can however with the right teachings get back to a simpler way of gaming, if we broaden our horizons. I will not be so crass as to say that our new Hacktastic D/20 game will do all this, but it is a step in the right direction. Less rules more playing (not to mention a crap load of dice rolling). If not our new system then perhaps 4e. I know many out there cringe at the mention of the dreaded 4th edition, but truly it seems they are going for faster simpler play with a pile of excitement. Isn't that all we really need out of a game? FUN is what we need.
It is up to old warhorses like us to take the first steps towards bringing back the glory of PNP RPGs. No matter what you play, do it well and make it fun. Try and find new blood, because let's face it we are not getting any younger. As Master Yoda once said "Pass on what you have learned".
"WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?…..WELL IT AINT OVER NOW! WHO'S WITH ME LET'S DO IT!"
Let's show these young punks how we did and still do it! Let's give them a show. Wether you are a player or a Gamemaster at TPK2 let us all bring our best game. The best way I think to make the younger crowd want to play PNP is to show them what they can't get playing online or computer or card games. Let's take back our title.
GAMERS… that is right true gamers roleplay, we are not a bunch of button pushing, card shuffling punks. We have dice bags (not just to keep track of our life points either)! I call to your all my brothers (and Sisters) of old, we grim few who have walked into the TOMB OF HORRORS or know first hand what the sacred 6Ds are (D20, D12, D10, D8, D6 and D4). Those of us who owe our gaming lives to E. Gary Gygax DAMIT! Break out your RED BOX SETS, Your DMG with the thief stealing the gemstone eye out of the fat demon statue, your d6 Starwars Books, Old School Battletech by GOD! LET'S SHOW THESE YOUNGSTERS WHAT IT TRUELY MENAS TO TAKE UP A D20, SMASH IN A DUNGEON DOOR AND KICK SOME MOSTER ASS!
We all, myself especially like to wax poetic about the "good old days", well that is just gully dwarf crap! We can make NOW the stuff of our legendary tales we share over potbellies and empty pizza boxes.
I LOVE GAMING! some of the best times in my life have been spent gathered around a table with a lot of you mutt faced curs. I want the new gamers of today to have the kind of fun he have had. I want them to build the kinds of friendships like gaming has built for us! DAMIT, we still game with some of our buddies we knew from Jr High. Not many other people can say that. Let's quit quibbling about what is good or bad with a system. Just take up a game and play it. Try and get younger player to play it with you. They won't learn if we don't teach.
I Pleadge to give the best game I can each and every time I sit down behind the screen or before it. To try and bring back gaming the way we all remember it.
Any who are with me post it below. To those who are not, well you are still welcome at my table, but get ready because the Big E is back and he is ready to run at full force. This is not Final Fantasy, this is not Candyland. Bring your A GAME or be ready to make up some backup Characters. When I say PC I'm talking about a Player Character not a freaking Computer.
Play whatever system you like, but PLAY IT. Don't just talk about it and I'll do the same. If every kid I meet wants to play 4e then guess who is buying ALL the 4e books. Whatever it takes. I'll stop rolling dice when they pry then from my cold dead hands.
GAME ON!
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